Slow car fast

"wiffleballtony" (wiffleballtony) 10/08/2015 at 17:24 • Filed to: None

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We are all familiar with the old adage, it’s more fun to drive a slow car fast, than a fast car slow. I’ve always kept my peace about this until now. I think it’s complete crap.

I will start off my saying that my first gripe with this is the verbage. The words in the phrase literally say that the slow car is being driven at a faster speed than the fast car. Which in of itself makes the experience more exciting. Secondly, what speed is fast? 75 mph? 85 mph? Then we are also making the assumption that the slow car isn’t a POS. What’s the point of wringing an engine out when it sounds terrible and you’re receiving little output for your input. I had a Mitsubishi Diamante as a rental once and I had to rev the nuts off it in every gear to do an acceptable speed, not fun.

I’ve been driving for around 15 years now. Most of it in slow cars, I can honestly say in every single instance I would rather be in a fast car than a slow one. In my current car, even if I’m doing 45, every moment I can feel the rumble and the torque and it is glorious.

I am prepared for incoming hate.

Montalvo > wiffleballtony 10/08/2015 at 17:31

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I find that to be the case too, but at the same time I think you are taking this statement a bit too much at face value. A POS is a POS unless you are rallying it to death or destruction derby or whatever. If a car is truly enjoyable you will love it at any speed. The slow car fast is really supposed to be about something that gives you a bit of fun or drama at low speeds think BRZ vs GT-R. The GT-R is a well sorted car but it is not happy unless you abuse it.

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > wiffleballtony 10/08/2015 at 17:33

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Fast and slow are all relative terms. There’s nothing wrong with the word choice. Fast for a slow car and slow for a fast car could be the exact same speed.

Tareim - V8 powered > wiffleballtony 10/08/2015 at 17:34

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It’s not meant to mean any slow car driven fast is better than a fast car, it’s along the lines of the Toyobaru/Miata/Fist style cars that doesn’t have millions of bhp where you can find the limits of that car within the legal limit whereas to get to the limits of a fast car such as a Porsche or a Ferrari you will have to break the law and speed

Mercedes Streeter > wiffleballtony 10/08/2015 at 17:35

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“Slow car fast” doesn’t apply to every slow car, it’s really only supposed to apply to *fun* slow cars, not penalty boxes. A speeding Chevy Aveo is still a Chevy Aveo.

Now, but a speeding smart car...

505 - morphine not found > wiffleballtony 10/08/2015 at 17:37

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You completely misunderstand this adage.

It means that it’s better to drive a “slow” car at 9/10th than a fast car at 2/10th even if that means doing the same speed. It’s better, because in the slow car you are driving close to the ragged edge of the car’s performance, while with the fast car you’re just pootling along.

And no, this does not reference getting up to highway speeds. This references going balls out on a winding back road, or even better, on a track.

wiffleballtony > Montalvo 10/08/2015 at 17:37

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Despite my feelings, the BRZ twins aren’t really even slow cars. Neither is an MX5. Ultimately my feeling is that people are trying to say that a good car can be fun at any speed. And that you don’t need a sub 3 second face ripper.

TractorPillow > wiffleballtony 10/08/2015 at 17:38

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No hate but here’s my side, a side I would argue has some credibility due to the cars I have had.

Until recently, my two cars were a classic Mini Cooper and a 2002 Dodge Viper. Driving the mini, even at the same slowish (30-45) speed as the viper was way more fun. Nothing can beat the feeling of being thrown back into your seat by the vipers abundance of Hp and torque, but that’s driving it fast. When I floored the mini and ripped around twisty roads I was in heaven. Taking the viper, slowly on those roads, is not fun - mainly because it wants to be unleashed.

I’ve even had the thought before of posting something like this to refute it’s claim, but I think back to when I had a bipolar set of cars and I know I cannot believe your argument.

wiffleballtony > 505 - morphine not found 10/08/2015 at 17:39

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No, I get it. I just fail to see how you can get to 9/10th in a car that isn’t a POS on public roads. And if that’s the case it’s unsafe.

Rico > wiffleballtony 10/08/2015 at 17:41

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Glad you posted this because I completely agree and having power on tap to pull you ahead at any point is great. A great fast car has the suspension (usually) you want to hit the backroads.

wiffleballtony > TractorPillow 10/08/2015 at 17:42

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But the Mini isn’t slow.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > wiffleballtony 10/08/2015 at 17:44

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Actually, it doesn’t imply that the slow car being driven “fast” is any kind of objective “fast”. The verbiage isn’t a flaw at all, because speed comparatives are relative. “Fast”, as a word, is very subjective - a fast pitch is much slower than a fast (unspecified) car is much slower than a fast plane is mindbogglingly faster than a fast horse. So when we say a slow car is being driven “fast”, that easily can mean “...for that car” - and usually means exactly that. A “fast” speed for that car, which might be a “slow” speed for another. Is it more fun to drive a Citroen 2CV 70mph (absolutely flat out, unquestionably “fast” by its standard) or to drive a Ferrari 70mph-and-only-70 (definitely “slow” by its standard)? Some would say yes, some would say no. Probably more would say no, but let’s mix it up: Morgan three-wheeler. Not very fast in absolute numbers, but very possibly more fun at 45 than a Ferrari.

So you see, it’s not (or at least shouldn’t be) an absolute, but nor is it inherently flawed. Is it missing qualifiers (like your POS one)? Absolutely. The phrase “the exception proves the rule” is quite literally about having a statement properly qualified for better truth. Not a disproof at all.

As much as people (generally, I’m generalizing) have fun by driving fast, that’s as much about *feeling* fast as actually being fast. Lower cars, grittier cars, more earthy cars, etc. etc. are force multipliers for “feeling fast”. Many of those are not actually that fast. What isn’t fun is when your car is convinced you’re going fast before you are and complains about it. A mushy unpleasant ride coupled with your car making dire threats that it’s going to herniate its splanch is not fun. A car making incoherent roarings at everyone and everything while not doing *that much* generally is. A ‘64 Galaxie with a 390 is not actually that fast, but brother, will it tell you it is. Often. Insistently.

yitznewton > wiffleballtony 10/08/2015 at 17:44

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My application of this: it was WAY more fun to drive an S2000 around on NJ highways than a Porsche Cayman. The Cayman is just not optimized for street speeds, whereas the S2000, for example, is, IMO. Same speed (45-65 mph), very different experience.

wiffleballtony > Tareim - V8 powered 10/08/2015 at 17:44

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I guess my opinion of what slow is, is different from vast perception.

wiffleballtony > yitznewton 10/08/2015 at 17:45

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But the S2000 isn’t a slow car.

TractorPillow > wiffleballtony 10/08/2015 at 17:48

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1974 classic mini. 50-60 hp. 0-60 of 12 seconds maybe. Top speed mid 80s. It was slow.

wiffleballtony > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 10/08/2015 at 17:48

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I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

wiffleballtony > TractorPillow 10/08/2015 at 17:49

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I assumed it was a new Mini.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > wiffleballtony 10/08/2015 at 17:53

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Actually... Without serious performance tweaks, even a more modern classic 1275cc Cooper is hard to do much over 110mph with. That’s modern economy car range or worse. The 998 standard? Fuggedaboudit. Minis are fast when built to be fast and nimble through the twisties, but they’re not *objectively* that fast - trending toward slow.

TractorPillow > wiffleballtony 10/08/2015 at 17:54

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Thats why I wrote classic mini. The truth is I’ve been driving fast cars and thought the exact same thing as you, I just then remember that im driving fast so my logic is flawed.

Driving the classic mini in a spirited manner is more SPM (smiles per mile) by far than driving the Viper around town and obeying the speed limits.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > wiffleballtony 10/08/2015 at 18:00

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The ‘64 Galaxie is a real-life example. I went to an event at Brands Hatch when I went to the UK - the Masters Historic, and one of the classes was “pre (something or other) saloon car”. Which meant Mustang, Falcon, Cortina, Mini, Alfa, and a Bim... and a Mercury Comet Cyclone and Galaxie 500. The big guy was last and got lapped. Almost twice. The whole time, the big allegedly-race-prepped 390 was roaring its equivalent to “I’LL KILL YOU ALL AND ALL YOUR FAMILIES, GURBLE WURBLE” and the giant barge body blocked people swinging wide around the bends. I know who was having fun in that race...

I know Jim Clark raced one successfully-ish, but he was a wizard.

505 - morphine not found > wiffleballtony 10/08/2015 at 18:00

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Well, you never tried the right slow cars, then. The 1985 MR2 and 1989 Miata are two great examples, it’s not just a mantra around here, these really do have merit. I own an 1986 MR2, and yes, I drove it 9/10th quite a lot, and loved every minute - even though I would bet my last dollar I could have kept up with myself in a modern diesel Hyundai. These also start, go, steer and brake just fine and have no problem keeping up with traffic, so as far as I am concerned, are perfectly safe.

Slow car =/= POS

Eric @ opposite-lock.com > wiffleballtony 10/08/2015 at 18:24

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A smaller/lighter car that isn’t as fast is almost invariably more fun to drive than a faster car that you can’t drive anywhere near the limits.

Driving a car that is fast within the limits of the law on public roads sucks, trust me.

Decay buys too many beaters > wiffleballtony 10/08/2015 at 18:30

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Depends, power is fun, but so is driving a shitbox literally at it’s limit. I can relate it pretty well to my experience with bikes. I have an SV650 which is pretty middling in performance as far as bikes go, but can embarrass vipers in straight line acceleration, and with the suspension upgrades I’ve done can hang with the best sportbikes in the twisties. It’s a wonderful machine and a ton of fun to hoon, but you know what? I find myself reaching for the keys to my vintage 50cc scooter just as often because there is just no substitute for dragging frame in a corner with the throttle pegged all at legal speeds in residential zones.

marshknute > wiffleballtony 10/08/2015 at 19:28

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I think you’ve missed the point of the adage entirely.

It doesn’t apply to shitty penalty boxes (Cobalt). It applies to sports/sporty cars that look, handle, sound, and drive well (Miata) but just aren’t powerful. They’re more fun because you can use more of its performance potential more of the time.

A twisty back road is more enjoyable when driven at sane speeds when you have enough time to think ahead and focus on the sensations of driving. A Miata driven at 10-tenths is the same speed as a Corvette driven at 5-tenths. You can drive the Corvette faster, but you wouldn't feel comfortable doing so because it starts to feel too dangerous.

Of course for daily driving, it’s way more enjoyable to have a powerful car because you’re just weaving through traffic. Let’s put it this way: my old NA Miata is the most fun car I’ve ever driven, but I would never choose a Miata as a daily driver over my 15’ WRX.

wiffleballtony > TractorPillow 10/08/2015 at 19:40

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That was a reading comprehension fail on my part. I’ve never seen a classic Mini in the wild so my mind chose the new one.

wiffleballtony > 505 - morphine not found 10/08/2015 at 19:42

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I’ll take your word for it.

wiffleballtony > Eric @ opposite-lock.com 10/08/2015 at 19:43

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I don’t know, maybe our definitions of fast are different. I wouldn’t drive an econobox daily over my Mustang.

wiffleballtony > marshknute 10/08/2015 at 19:46

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No, I haven’t missed understood the adage. And you can’t drive a Miata at 10/10th on a public road and obey traffic laws. If you think you are then you’re not at 10/10ths. Plus by your definition you’re redefining half of the adage.

yitznewton > wiffleballtony 10/08/2015 at 20:42

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You know, I think I’ve been brainwashed by the haters. I looked at the numbers, and it seems you’re right! I guess I just found the S2k more fun than the Cayman for street use... no more.

marshknute > wiffleballtony 10/08/2015 at 22:47

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I never said anything about obeying traffic laws.

I know a few fun, twisty, deserted roads near me and I ignore any and all traffic laws when I’m out for a spirited weekend drive.

My Miata was more enjoyable to race through those roads than my much faster WRX (or the 3-series or A4 I used to own).